"India's Liberals are Lonely" I Why Gurcharan Das "Wont Vote Modi or Rahul" I Barkha Dutt I 2024

Watch the full interview above and check out the complete transcript right here in the description!

Barkha Dutt: You have an entire book that talks about the dilemma of being an Indian liberal. But this isn't just about Indian liberals. The American election results show to us that liberals across the world are facing an existential challenge. What has happened?

Gurcharan Das: Well, you're absolutely right. It's worldwide, and liberals are under siege, if you will. And the fault is on both sides. The left blames liberalism because of inequality in their countries. They hate globalization now, which was a very central part of the prosperity that came in the latter half of the 20th century. And so they're concerned with market power. The right feels that liberals have let them down because of loss of community, loss of traditions, that liberals are too concerned with themselves, thinking of themselves as superior and having this elitism. In India, that elitism is exacerbated even more because today, 75 years after independence, all the serious business of the private sector and the government is done in English. And a maximum of 10-15% of people are comfortable in English. So imagine if somebody was sitting here with us today, a bright young lad, and he would have felt deaf in his own country. And to feel deaf 75 years after independence.

Barkha Dutt: Do you think language is part of the problem?

Gurcharan Das: Yes, the reality, and of course, I'm not suggesting that we need to have Hindi as our language. It's partly our country. I mean, we are a multilingual country. But I think we could have done a better job of integrating English because it gives us a lot of advantages with our mother tongues. If we had continued a strong culture, unfortunately, education has failed us. But that really is part of the problem.

Barkha Dutt: Now, Gurcharan, you have written about how the one big failing of liberals has been the relationship with faith and religion—the absence of a language to communicate with a larger population. You know, I always say that I, as a journalist, failed to understand many of the political and religious debates of our time because I didn't have that language. I wasn't molded in that way. When we look at the relationship between liberals and religion, what do you make of it?

Gurcharan Das: Well, I grew up in a family where my father was a mystic. It was a bhakti sect. And so we grew up with a lot of spirituality—not religion, typically, but spirituality around us. Then, of course, I went to Harvard and I studied philosophy. When I went in, I believed in God and socialism. When I came out, I'd lost my faith in God and socialism. But I had a father who was also a liberal. He was spiritual, but he understood my perspective. He knew that I had lost my faith, but he never reminded me of that, never pushed it down my throat. So I have grown as an agnostic, but with a deep respect for faith. Unlike Marx, Freud, or today’s Richard Dawkins, who have a contempt for religious people, I have respect. My father used to say you have to be lucky to have faith.

Let me give you an example. About ten years ago, I was in Chennai at the Madras Museum. In front of the portico, there’s a wonderful Chola statue of Shiva dancing the Tandava. I admired the beauty, the aesthetics of it. Then a Tamil woman came barefoot and put a vermillion mark on the statue, treating it as her God. At first, the liberal in me was horrified: "This is a museum, not a temple!" Later, I came back and saw a marigold flower she had placed on it. This time, I felt differently. I thought, "For her, this is eternity; she sees the creation of the universe in this dance and I am worried about dust and lighting." That’s when I saw the richness of her life and the poverty of mine. That, to me, is liberalism—not judging others, tolerating differences.

Barkha Dutt: You’ve talked about losing friends on both the left and right. Why is that?

Gurcharan Das: I lost my friends on the right when I criticized the Gujarat riots of 2002. I lost my friends on the left in 2014 when I was so disgusted with the corruption in UPA2 that I supported Modi. His message of Vikas and minimum government, maximum governance, felt like a fresh breeze. But demonetization and other decisions later made me critical of him, and I remain a lonely liberal.

Barkha Dutt: You recently said you feel you have no one to vote for. Is that still the case?

Gurcharan Das: Yes. In the last Lok Sabha elections, I felt politically alienated. I couldn’t vote for Modi due to concerns about democracy turning illiberal and anti-Muslim rhetoric. At the same time, I couldn’t vote for the opposition because, after 10 years, they hadn’t presented solutions for real issues like jobs, clean air, education, or health.

Barkha Dutt: Let’s talk about your time at Procter & Gamble. You were promoting Vicks VapoRub and faced a legal threat. What happened?

Gurcharan Das: After Harvard, I was supposed to pursue a PhD at Oxford but decided I wanted a life of action. By chance, I joined Vicks. During a flu epidemic, we sold 30% more than our license allowed. I was summoned by a bureaucrat who accused me of breaking the law. Despite our good intentions of helping people during the epidemic, he threatened to send me to jail. I pointed out how this would look internationally, given our contributions. The matter was eventually dropped, but it was a lesson in the absurdities of the License Raj.

Barkha Dutt: Is that when you joined the Swatantra Party?

Gurcharan Das: Yes. The Swatantra Party—India’s only attempt at a socially liberal, economically right-wing party—felt like a natural fit. Unfortunately, such a model doesn’t exist today.

Barkha Dutt: You’ve often talked about the achievements of liberalism. What are they?

Gurcharan Das: Liberalism has lifted millions out of poverty, created democracies, and freed people from feudal systems. However, India remained economically illiberal for 40 years under Nehru, wasting opportunities for job creation.

Barkha Dutt: Are we economically liberal today?

Gurcharan Das: Since 1991, we’ve grown at 6.5% annually and lifted 450 million people out of poverty. However, we still lack enough jobs and good governance.

Barkha Dutt: What’s your take on nationalism?

Gurcharan Das: There’s good and bad nationalism. Good nationalism is about pride in our culture, history, and geography. Bad nationalism is about power and exclusion.

Barkha Dutt: Do you think liberalism is in danger?

Gurcharan Das: Liberalism has faced worse enemies like fascism and communism. Its core ideas—tolerance, skepticism of power, and open-mindedness—are too good to die.

Barkha Dutt: What’s your assessment of the Modi government?

Gurcharan Das: Modi has created the best preconditions for an industrial revolution with infrastructure improvements and financial inclusion. However, reforms like land acquisition and labor laws need better execution and communication. His reliance on welfareism mirrors the Congress, which is concerning.

Barkha Dutt: And your optimism for liberalism?

Gurcharan Das: The Indian temperament is inherently liberal. Our pluralistic culture and philosophical traditions ensure that liberalism has a bright future in India.

Barkha Dutt: Thank you, Gurcharan Das, for this thought-provoking conversation.

Gurcharan Das: Thank you, Barkha.